The World's Most Complex Machine

(worksinprogress.co)

61 points | by mellosouls 2 days ago

6 comments

  • Amorymeltzer 42 minutes ago
    It's been mentioned before, but Chris Miller's Chip War from a few years back is an excellent, very-readable book on the topic. Goes into depth on the history and development of chips and their production. He did the rounds on the interviews back then, and it's definitely worth a read. The EUV stuff is great, but I particularly liked his history on how the USSR was always going to lose and how integral Apollo really was.
  • maxalbarello 1 hour ago
    For anyone interested in the topic I highly recommend this Veritasium video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0
    • jasode 1 hour ago
      The Veritasium video is good but their "newscast" style with constant back-and-forth cuts to talking heads can make the presentation a bit disjointed.

      The more straightforward video of ASML EUV is from Branch Education: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2482h_TNwg

      Because that vid gives an overview of the whole machine, it gives context to what each scientist is talking about in the Veritasium interviews.

      • maxalbarello 28 minutes ago
        Thank you! The video you recommended definitely goes more in depth. I still like Veritasium's style more but it's just personal preference ofc
    • Zealotux 1 hour ago
      Great video and I think the only way to truly grasp the complexity of EUV lithography as a layman.
  • mytailorisrich 46 minutes ago
    It is unavoidable that, at some point, China will have its own matching or better machine because they obviously how incredibly strategically important it is.
    • KermitTheFrog 21 minutes ago
      Non-zero chances - yes. Unavoidable - I wouldn't be so sure. I can't imagine how many top human-hours and cutting-edge inventions involved to construct this machine. And much of this simply cannot be stolen or bought, no matter how much money you have.
      • mytailorisrich 14 minutes ago
        It has never happened in the history of the world that a company or country could maintain its technological advance indefinitely.

        Either China will catch up on this or that particular technology will become obsolete. But it is certain that they won't stay behind forever (measured in a small number of decades at most).

        • codeulike 5 minutes ago
          Right but if you dont say how long it will take them, youre not really saying anything.
    • codeulike 23 minutes ago
      "at some point" is doing a lot of work there. How long do you think?
  • ForHackernews 1 hour ago
    They might be the most complex mass-produced commercial machines but the Large Hadron Collider has a plausible claim to the title of "world's most complex machine" https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/103591-la...
  • maxalbarello 26 minutes ago
    and yet not even close to the complexity of the human brain
  • moffkalast 1 hour ago
    If there's really such a bottleneck around ASML, why not design some extra chips for legacy processes that presumably already have well known design workflows?

    I mean we're not talking AMD FX and Core 2 Duo here, it's Raptor Lake and Zen 3, it's perfectly viable and still being sold in droves right now.

    • irdc 1 hour ago
      That’s what the likes of AMD with their chiplet design have been doing.

      There’s also the issue of older process nodes not being profitable enough anymore, which explaines why at the height of the chip supply crunch older ARM chips were in short supply but there was ample stock of the 20nm feature-sized RP2040.

      • moffkalast 46 minutes ago
        This is gonna sound super dumb, but I'm not sure how they aren't being profitable if there are shortages, just price things beyond break even level? The average person can't even tell the difference between a Core 5 and a Core 5 Ultra, you can practically sell them at the same price and I'm not even sure they'd notice when actually using them. The performance jump is relatively minor and the bottlenecks are elsewhere.
        • MadnessASAP 36 minutes ago
          It mostly comes down to the consumer market not being significant enough by itself. A consumer may not notice a 10% increase in performance per watt or dollar. A large office building probably will, and a datacenter definitely will.

          I don't think I'm being entirely hyperbolic when I say the consumer market only exists to put devices that can connect to and feed the datacenter loads into the general populations hands.